Tracy: Ready! Achtung, baby!
Natalie: Ha!
Super!
Merry Christmas, we have Nazis
Tracy: Hee. It was quite harrowing, I thought.
Natalie: Me, too. Sort of--this was my second viewing except I
didn't pay a lot of attention during the first. J wanted to see it and I was in
the room and looked up enough to see what was happening. So I'd seen the really
harrowing parts already without paying attention. I don't know that paying
attention added much . . .
Tracy: I learned a lot. I didn't know much about the final days
of the war in Berlin. And I liked it. Well, "liked" it, but I think
it was another case of this movie coinciding with research interests I
have--I'm interested in how communities/countries commemorate really awful
things they've done, and I think this move was part of that ongoing project for
Germany.
Natalie: I was interested to see how it all ended for the bad
guys--and this was the first film to depict Hitler as a fully-formed character
rather than a caricature so that's hugely important--but, once again, I was
daunted by the length of the film. Just a tad shorter and I might have been
full in.
Tracy: It was like the movie was trying to replicate AH's
schizoid self. It was so strange and jarring to see what was going on in the
bunker (the champagne, the suicides) and what was happening on the streets right
above their heads. It made it long--I think they should have cut that one boy's
story. I could have done without that. I liked the doctor bit, though. Also
think it's interesting how they made AH a character--could
have gone with Voldemort-esque embodiment of evil, but instead made him a
shriveled, sick (body and mind) man. That's better and worse, somehow.
Natalie: Absolutely. If they'd made AH a sort of stereotypical
madman for the whole film, I would have lost interest immediately. That he has
weaknesses beyond being absolutely out of his mind made him an actual person in
a way I don't think any other piece of art has--I don't know about histories,
non-fiction, etc. The bookends with Traudl made me want to watch the documentary
the director made first, though. I loved her line about realizing being young
wasn't an excuse, that one could have found things out.
Tracy: Yes! I wasn't on board with that framing device until that
moment. I thought we were only going to get this marginalized perspective--what
she saw--but then we saw things she didn't witness, and I was like "why
did we focus on her at all?" But it was huge payoff at the end.
I also
learned that if freaking Goebbels is looking at you like you're out of your
mind, you're seriously in trouble.
Natalie: Ha! If Goebbels is the warning device, I think you're
seriously in trouble, anyway. I can't find the name of that documentary which
is going to drive me insane. But, do you think making Hitler a person instead
of just a wacko made an impact? Because, the only thing that has made the
rounds that I've seen from the film is the meme where he's freaking the fuck
out; just being a wacko.
So,
that seems to be the immediate cultural impact at least.
Tracy: I agree. I think that's the only thing people have taken
away from it. To me, it seems a bit like whistling through the graveyard. It's
even scarier, to me, that he was just a person, and that people are capable of
this unspeakable evil--anyone is. So if we just look at the wacko, we don't
have to think about that part. And also, that people are capable of falling
under a charismatic person's sway to the extent that they will EXECUTE THEIR
CHILDREN.
Natalie: Yes! The two scenes with the kids being given drugs are
chilling. And to see her swat away her husband as she has to drop to the floor
after she's killed them was a glimpse at her maternal instinct but two seconds
later, she's straight backed and getting ready to be shot by her husband for
the cause. And, I agree, him being a person and having the capacity to be nice
to people makes the atrocities that much harder to handle. If he's not a
boogie-man, someone else could be just like him. The documentary is Blind Spot:
Hitler's Secretary, not by the same director which is why I couldn't find it.
On my queue now . . . so I'll wonder why it's there when I haven't watched it
in a year.
Tracy: Hehehehe. We'll have to do a follow-up post. Two questions
that I wanted to hear your thoughts on:
1) This
reminded me of the "good Nazi" movie phenomenon, particularly Viggo's
"Good." Do you think it was handled well? Thinking of the doctor
here.
2) Do
you think the U.S. has a movie that similarly confronts our past in a way as
unblinking? Where's our slavery movie, in other words?
Natalie: 1. I've not seen "Good" so I don't know about
that. I think this movie did a just fine job of presenting "good
Nazis" and trying to delve into why they might have been involved with the
movement (back to Traudl's comment there) and how they might be good people
caught up in a bad situation or good people in other ways but with this one
flaw (that is huge). If any more had been done, I don't know that audiences
would have swallowed it. It would have been too much a fairy tale. We're
already trying to show a monster as a human being who is kind enough to start
dictation over when the new secretary can't keep up.
2. No.
J
We like
to blink. A lot. As in, close our eyes and wait until we can just make the bad
guy a monster under the bed and be done with it.
Tracy: Hah! Yeah, I agree. "Good" is more about the
birth of the party, so it might not have worked as well anyway. I just find it
constantly interesting that Berlin has kept some of its city in rubble so its
citizens never forget, and all we've got is "Glory" and
"Beloved" and some freaking plaques. So do you think it's 1001
worthy?
Natalie: Absolutely. Even with more current events, we clean up the
mess and make sure to move on in a happy, shiny fashion. Ground Zero for a
glaring example. That also ties back to your question--we don't have a film
with a "good" terrorist, particularly a "good" Muslim
terrorist. We don't have a film with a Muslim terrorist as a main character.
DeLillo was slammed for having a 9/11 terrorist as a main character in Falling
Man and whosit didn't get far with his terrorist book either--Amis? Can't
remember. People get beyond angry when the bad guy might be human here. Is it
1001 worthy? Sure. Because it's important to understand that these aren't
Disney villains. We're not dealing with Maleficent who will stay on the
celluloid. Some poor woman could birth another Hitler and, for the whole repeat
history cliche, we need to face the humanity of evil in our world(s). Would I
recommend anyone watch it? Probably not unless that person was really
interested in the subject matter. Or I had a captive audience of students.
You?
Tracy: First of all--you're absolutely right about the way we
"commemorate" in this country. Was it Updike who tried to have a
terrorist main character? And I think Amis did too, yes. And remember how Maher
basically lost his show when he dared parse the word "brave"? And I
think it's 1001 worthy for sure. Not only does it tell you stuff, I think it's
pretty successful cinematically. I loved how claustrophobic it felt--and I think
the book talks about the interesting ways AH is framed. It also seemed to make
an argument about how if your cult of personality dude is insane and suicidal,
your overall culture becomes insane and suicidal too.
Tracy: There
were a freaking LOT of suicides.
Natalie: Yes--Updike was who I was thinking of but Amis did it,
too. Maher had a good point. We've talked about the word "hero"
before and the problems with how it's used. We could advance quite a bit (in a
lot of ways) if we (as a country, not me and you) could complicate our language
about good and bad. The soldier is not always a hero and the terrorist is not
always evil; both could be called brave in certain ways. We make fighting wars
very black and white when they're not at all. And the country does the same
thing with any sort of "villain" from terrorists to Michael Jackson's
doctor. But, yes yes and yes to your 1001 reasons.
There
WERE a lot of suicides. Traudl was one of the only actually brave ones to try
to get out.
Tracy: I've got 1001 reasons and the bitch ain't one.
Natalie: Ha!
Tracy: Couldn't resist--so we're on board with Downfall. Next . .
. Sombre! More death and doom!
Natalie: So, Sombre was on the old list so we'll see if we think it
should have been axed
Tracy: So to speak!
Natalie: J
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